SkinsFan67
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Post by SkinsFan67 on Sept 28, 2018 15:31:43 GMT -5
Those mistakes have context, too, and it's always ignored. Cousins will play great, put up fantastic numbers and the offense scores a ton of points, even without a running game. The defense gives up copious amounts of points, undoing a herculean effort by Cousins who by late in the game realizes either he does it or no one will. Time is now a factor and he, having to pull the weight of the entire team and the game on his shoulders, makes a mistake late in the game trying to up his game from an already stellar position. The team loses and it's somehow his fault and his mistake that cost them the game. This is the true wash...rinse...repeat cycle.
The 47 minutes of bumbling by the defense doesn't get the blame. It's not the wasted 4 TDs and 3 FGs that gets mentioned that turned the next offensive series into an emergency need-a-TD situation. No, it's the one play on the one drive that should never have been important in the first place that gets characterized as Cousins' fault when it was really the failing cast around him that caused it.
Wash...rinse...repeat.
Thank you. You saved me having to answer people that just want to focus on the 1 negative play that happens and not the 20 positive plays that happened to get the team to where it is in that one moment. When those same mistakes keep happening to the same player regardless of the team he is on though, it does seem to be more that just a coincidence. Starting in '15 when he became our starter he has the following fumbles: '15 - 9 '16 - 9 '17 - 13 '18 - 4 (through 4 games, so on pace for 16 fumbles) And prior to becoming a starter he had a total of 6 fumbles in 14 games played in (9 starts). It is clearly a problem for Kirk. That is a total of 41 fumbles since 6.25 seasons. All of it can not be blamed on his OL. |
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Post by Hershey22 on Sept 28, 2018 16:08:56 GMT -5
Thank you. You saved me having to answer people that just want to focus on the 1 negative play that happens and not the 20 positive plays that happened to get the team to where it is in that one moment. When those same mistakes keep happening to the same player regardless of the team he is on though, it does seem to be more that just a coincidence. Starting in '15 when he became our starter he has the following fumbles: '15 - 9 '16 - 9 '17 - 13 '18 - 4 (through 4 games, so on pace for 16 fumbles) And prior to becoming a starter he had a total of 6 fumbles in 14 games played in (9 starts). It is clearly a problem for Kirk. That is a total of 41 fumbles since 6.25 seasons. All of it can not be blamed on his OL. ...I'm not by any stretch calling Cousins a Hall of Famer but he has a lot of the same attributes as Dan Marino... lots of yards lots of QB success but in the end a real choker... |
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Post by PCinOz on Sept 28, 2018 16:11:58 GMT -5
The only stat that matters is wins/losses and he has 2 losses So does their D. |
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Post by PCinOz on Sept 28, 2018 16:14:45 GMT -5
Cousins played well for the most part last night, but it was pretty much a microcosm of his entire career. Put up gaudy stats and fail in the last few minutes of the fourth quarter. He's obviously a good QB and not everything should fall on him. But, the difference between Minny and the Rams is the Rams are getting cheap production from the QB position and the Vikings are getting expensive production (which is really going to be a problem with the WR salaries come due). The Minny defense was terrible last night, but coming into last night they were a top 10 defense (footballoutsiders). The offense, OTOH, came in ranked 22nd (19th in passing and 31st in running). The eye test tells you they are far below last years level. Over all 4 games, especially the last 2 weeks. |
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Post by MorsDraconis on Sept 28, 2018 16:28:35 GMT -5
Thank you. You saved me having to answer people that just want to focus on the 1 negative play that happens and not the 20 positive plays that happened to get the team to where it is in that one moment. When those same mistakes keep happening to the same player regardless of the team he is on though, it does seem to be more that just a coincidence. Starting in '15 when he became our starter he has the following fumbles: '15 - 9 '16 - 9 '17 - 13 '18 - 4 (through 4 games, so on pace for 16 fumbles) And prior to becoming a starter he had a total of 6 fumbles in 14 games played in (9 starts). It is clearly a problem for Kirk. That is a total of 41 fumbles since 6.25 seasons. All of it can not be blamed on his OL. Proof that those mean absolutely nothing: Jared Goff '18 - 8 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '13 - 9 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '14 - 9 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '16 - 8 fumbles Phillip Rivers '12 - 15 fumbles Phillip Rivers '14 - 8 fumbles Phillip Rivers '16 - 9 fumbles Phillip Rivers '17 - 8 fumbles Matt Ryan '15 - 12 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '08 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '09 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '14 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '15 - 8 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '16 - 8 fumbles Eli Manning '05 - 9 fumbles Eli Manning '06 - 9 fumbles Eli Manning '07 - 13 fumbles Eli Manning '09 - 13 fumbles Eli Manning '11 - 8 fumbles Eli Manning '15 - 11 fumbles Eli Manning '17 - 11 fumbles Russell Wilson '13 - 10 fumbles Russell Wilson '14 - 11 fumbles Russell Wilson '16 - 8 fumbles Russell Wilson '17 - 14 fumbles Tom Brady '01 - 12 fumbles Tom Brady '02 - 11 fumbles Tom Brady '03 - 13 fumbles Tom Brady '06 - 12 fumbles Tom Brady '13 - 9 fumbles Tom Brady '17 - 7 fumbles And finally Alex Smith '05 - 11 fumbles Alex Smith '06 - 10 fumbles Alex Smith '11 - 7 fumbles Alex Smith '13 - 7 fumbles Alex Smith '16 - 7 fumbles I'm REALLY tired of crap excuses for hating on Cousins. You people have a vendetta against him because he told this garbage organization to shove it up our asses. You really just need to stop. We let a franchise QB walk away. Stop trying to deny it. |
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Post by PCinOz on Sept 28, 2018 17:00:43 GMT -5
Just for interest...
After 4 games last year the Vikes were 2-2, having just lost a shocker to Detroit at home in week 4. They had beaten the Saints at home, lost to the Steelers away and beaten the Bucs.
At that point their defense had given up just over 300 ypg, Cook (who got injured in week 4) had rushed for 354 yards, on 74 carries and 2 TD's. Their QB's had thrown for 1,140 yards and 6 TD's.
So far this year at 1-2-1 they have played SF, @gb, Buffalo and @lar their defense has given up nearly 400 ypg, all their running backs combined have gained 250 yards on the same number of carries as at the same time last year with zero scores, while their QB has 1,400 yards passing and 10 TD's.
The Vikes from week 5 then went on an 8 game winning streak, during which time their defense gave up only 300 total yards once (to us) and forcing 11 turnovers, rushed for over 1,100 yards in that span (without Cook), while their QB had 1900 yards and 13 TD's.
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1afn1
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Post by 1afn1 on Sept 28, 2018 17:14:01 GMT -5
Thank you. You saved me having to answer people that just want to focus on the 1 negative play that happens and not the 20 positive plays that happened to get the team to where it is in that one moment. When those same mistakes keep happening to the same player regardless of the team he is on though, it does seem to be more that just a coincidence. Starting in '15 when he became our starter he has the following fumbles: '15 - 9 '16 - 9 '17 - 13 '18 - 4 (through 4 games, so on pace for 16 fumbles) And prior to becoming a starter he had a total of 6 fumbles in 14 games played in (9 starts). It is clearly a problem for Kirk. That is a total of 41 fumbles since 6.25 seasons. All of it can not be blamed on his OL. It's not a coincidence. The best player on the team has to do even more week in and week out. It's almost as if tbe rest of the team leans on him too much to come up big when they fold. But how does a player who has been playing big all day play bigger? He presses. And that's when tbe age old adage of trying to do too much comes into play. How sbout a defense learning to win after the first 30 points scored instead of squandering it and forcimg the QB into a needlessly desperate situation. Of course it's no coincidence. He's been the victim of it for 3 years and counting. |
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PCinOz
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Post by PCinOz on Sept 28, 2018 17:20:38 GMT -5
When those same mistakes keep happening to the same player regardless of the team he is on though, it does seem to be more that just a coincidence. Starting in '15 when he became our starter he has the following fumbles: '15 - 9 '16 - 9 '17 - 13 '18 - 4 (through 4 games, so on pace for 16 fumbles) And prior to becoming a starter he had a total of 6 fumbles in 14 games played in (9 starts). It is clearly a problem for Kirk. That is a total of 41 fumbles since 6.25 seasons. All of it can not be blamed on his OL. It's not a coincidence. The best player on the team has to do even more week in and week out. It's almost as if tbe rest of the team leans on him too much to come up big when they fold. But how does a player who has been playing big all day play bigger? He presses. And that's when tbe age old adage of trying to do too much comes into play. How sbout a defense learning to win after the first 30 points scored instead of squandering it and forcimg the QB into a needlessly desperate situation. Of course it's no coincidence. He's been the victim of it for 3 years and counting. Yup. |
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Post by PCinOz on Sept 28, 2018 17:23:27 GMT -5
Jim Trotter
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2h2 hours ago
Most interesting statement from a Rams O-lineman last night was Whitworth telling me that the staff doesn’t coach football; it teaches football. It stresses the why, not the what. Hence all 11 players see the big picture and are able to adjust on the fly.
The McVay influence.
Coaching matters and influences game outcomes.
McVay's crew outcoached Zimmer's crew Thursday night.
A great example was on Kupp's 70 yard TD catch, I mean who has a pass rushing OLB with limited cover skills match up on a WR of Kupp's calibre?
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Post by kaiser on Sept 28, 2018 18:01:39 GMT -5
Cap number Alex Smith 2018 $18,400,000 2019 $20,400,000 2020 $21,400,000 2021 $24.4 million
2022 $26.4 millionKirk Cousins 2018 $24,000,000 2019 $29,000,000 2020 $31,000,000 So you tell me what the difference is... 5.5, 8.5, 9.5 in the next 3 years. Its the length between the two contracts (if Smith last the entire time) that provides the significant fiscal advantage. The guarantee is applied to the length of a five year agreement in Smiths case while only three years in Cousins case. So in essence if Smith stays in Washington until 2021, the level of compensation given to Smith at that time then begins to matches the level of compensation given to Cousins three years earlier. Its a far better contract (QB talents aside) for Washington since they can get out of the contract in 2020 if they so choose too. The guaranteed money is always the real money as PC likes to say. Obviously, however I was pointing out the fallacy and/or lazy analysis of $23.5m/yr vs $28m/yr and the "around $4m" difference. The truth is the difference is (will be) far far more than that. At this stage it's the difference between having and not having Z Brown. |
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SkinsFan67
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Post by SkinsFan67 on Sept 28, 2018 18:12:31 GMT -5
When those same mistakes keep happening to the same player regardless of the team he is on though, it does seem to be more that just a coincidence. Starting in '15 when he became our starter he has the following fumbles: '15 - 9 '16 - 9 '17 - 13 '18 - 4 (through 4 games, so on pace for 16 fumbles) And prior to becoming a starter he had a total of 6 fumbles in 14 games played in (9 starts). It is clearly a problem for Kirk. That is a total of 41 fumbles since 6.25 seasons. All of it can not be blamed on his OL. Proof that those mean absolutely nothing: Jared Goff '18 - 8 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '13 - 9 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '14 - 9 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '16 - 8 fumbles Phillip Rivers '12 - 15 fumbles Phillip Rivers '14 - 8 fumbles Phillip Rivers '16 - 9 fumbles Phillip Rivers '17 - 8 fumbles Matt Ryan '15 - 12 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '08 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '09 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '14 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '15 - 8 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '16 - 8 fumbles Eli Manning '05 - 9 fumbles Eli Manning '06 - 9 fumbles Eli Manning '07 - 13 fumbles Eli Manning '09 - 13 fumbles Eli Manning '11 - 8 fumbles Eli Manning '15 - 11 fumbles Eli Manning '17 - 11 fumbles Russell Wilson '13 - 10 fumbles Russell Wilson '14 - 11 fumbles Russell Wilson '16 - 8 fumbles Russell Wilson '17 - 14 fumbles Tom Brady '01 - 12 fumbles Tom Brady '02 - 11 fumbles Tom Brady '03 - 13 fumbles Tom Brady '06 - 12 fumbles Tom Brady '13 - 9 fumbles Tom Brady '17 - 7 fumbles And finally Alex Smith '05 - 11 fumbles Alex Smith '06 - 10 fumbles Alex Smith '11 - 7 fumbles Alex Smith '13 - 7 fumbles Alex Smith '16 - 7 fumbles I'm REALLY tired of crap excuses for hating on Cousins. You people have a vendetta against him because he told this garbage organization to shove it up our asses. You really just need to stop. We let a franchise QB walk away. Stop trying to deny it. I don't hate Kirk at all. I think he is a very good QB and I wanted us to extend him. And I have been rooting for him to do well with Minny. But he has his flaws and is showing the same flaws in Minny that he showed with us. He's a very good QB, not an elite QB, not even close to elite. |
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bigstink9
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Post by bigstink9 on Sept 28, 2018 20:47:17 GMT -5
When those same mistakes keep happening to the same player regardless of the team he is on though, it does seem to be more that just a coincidence. Starting in '15 when he became our starter he has the following fumbles: '15 - 9 '16 - 9 '17 - 13 '18 - 4 (through 4 games, so on pace for 16 fumbles) And prior to becoming a starter he had a total of 6 fumbles in 14 games played in (9 starts). It is clearly a problem for Kirk. That is a total of 41 fumbles since 6.25 seasons. All of it can not be blamed on his OL. Proof that those mean absolutely nothing: Jared Goff '18 - 8 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '13 - 9 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '14 - 9 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '16 - 8 fumbles Phillip Rivers '12 - 15 fumbles Phillip Rivers '14 - 8 fumbles Phillip Rivers '16 - 9 fumbles Phillip Rivers '17 - 8 fumbles Matt Ryan '15 - 12 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '08 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '09 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '14 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '15 - 8 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '16 - 8 fumbles Eli Manning '05 - 9 fumbles Eli Manning '06 - 9 fumbles Eli Manning '07 - 13 fumbles Eli Manning '09 - 13 fumbles Eli Manning '11 - 8 fumbles Eli Manning '15 - 11 fumbles Eli Manning '17 - 11 fumbles Russell Wilson '13 - 10 fumbles Russell Wilson '14 - 11 fumbles Russell Wilson '16 - 8 fumbles Russell Wilson '17 - 14 fumbles Tom Brady '01 - 12 fumbles Tom Brady '02 - 11 fumbles Tom Brady '03 - 13 fumbles Tom Brady '06 - 12 fumbles Tom Brady '13 - 9 fumbles Tom Brady '17 - 7 fumbles And finally Alex Smith '05 - 11 fumbles Alex Smith '06 - 10 fumbles Alex Smith '11 - 7 fumbles Alex Smith '13 - 7 fumbles Alex Smith '16 - 7 fumbles I'm REALLY tired of crap excuses for hating on Cousins. You people have a vendetta against him because he told this garbage organization to shove it up our asses. You really just need to stop. We let a franchise QB walk away. Stop trying to deny it.[/b]  |
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SkinsFan67
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Post by SkinsFan67 on Sept 28, 2018 23:46:35 GMT -5
I'm a Cousins fan. But he is not a franchise, or elite QB. Elite QBs put their teams on their backs and will them to victory. I'm ignoring the first 3 years of his tenure with us. As our starter he was a .500 QB who came up small in the biggest games. Did he have help getting to that record, sure. But fair or not, a QB is judged by his record. To date as a Viking he is a .375 QB. He has had more talent around him in the first 4 games than he ever did as a Redskin. He is putting up phenominal yardage as usual, but has turned the ball over at the worst time and has failed to lift his team up to wins.
Cousins is a very good QB. But he has his flaws and I think the Vikings will regret paying him what they did. Alex Smith is also a very good QB. He has his flaws as well, and is not a franchise/elite QB. What he has done is win games, a lot of games, in the RS. His crux is that he hasn't had playoff success.
But to say that the FO let Kirk walk is a joke. Kirk never, ever had any intention of signing a LTD here. He came out and said as much after he signed with Minny. He and his agent had a plan to leverage the FT into big bucks and to eventual unrestricted FA. That was his perogative, and I don't hold that against him. But he was never the long term answer here, as much as many of us (me included) wanted him to to be.
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Biggest
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Post by Biggest on Sept 29, 2018 7:11:06 GMT -5
Dave - it was a problem for Mark Rypien as well. Until that magical run in 1991! Thank you. You saved me having to answer people that just want to focus on the 1 negative play that happens and not the 20 positive plays that happened to get the team to where it is in that one moment. When those same mistakes keep happening to the same player regardless of the team he is on though, it does seem to be more that just a coincidence. Starting in '15 when he became our starter he has the following fumbles: '15 - 9 '16 - 9 '17 - 13 '18 - 4 (through 4 games, so on pace for 16 fumbles) And prior to becoming a starter he had a total of 6 fumbles in 14 games played in (9 starts). It is clearly a problem for Kirk. That is a total of 41 fumbles since 6.25 seasons. All of it can not be blamed on his OL. |
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Biggest
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Post by Biggest on Sept 29, 2018 7:16:10 GMT -5
Stink / Mors, you gotta let the anger go and not let the Kirk critiques - both the fair and unfair takes - kill you. He’s a Viking now and a stellar starter for them. That said, I so want to see the Skins and Vikes face off in the postseason. HTTR! Proof that those mean absolutely nothing: Jared Goff '18 - 8 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '13 - 9 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '14 - 9 fumbles Ben Roethlisberger '16 - 8 fumbles Phillip Rivers '12 - 15 fumbles Phillip Rivers '14 - 8 fumbles Phillip Rivers '16 - 9 fumbles Phillip Rivers '17 - 8 fumbles Matt Ryan '15 - 12 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '08 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '09 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '14 - 10 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '15 - 8 fumbles Aaron Rodgers '16 - 8 fumbles Eli Manning '05 - 9 fumbles Eli Manning '06 - 9 fumbles Eli Manning '07 - 13 fumbles Eli Manning '09 - 13 fumbles Eli Manning '11 - 8 fumbles Eli Manning '15 - 11 fumbles Eli Manning '17 - 11 fumbles Russell Wilson '13 - 10 fumbles Russell Wilson '14 - 11 fumbles Russell Wilson '16 - 8 fumbles Russell Wilson '17 - 14 fumbles Tom Brady '01 - 12 fumbles Tom Brady '02 - 11 fumbles Tom Brady '03 - 13 fumbles Tom Brady '06 - 12 fumbles Tom Brady '13 - 9 fumbles Tom Brady '17 - 7 fumbles And finally Alex Smith '05 - 11 fumbles Alex Smith '06 - 10 fumbles Alex Smith '11 - 7 fumbles Alex Smith '13 - 7 fumbles Alex Smith '16 - 7 fumbles I'm REALLY tired of crap excuses for hating on Cousins. You people have a vendetta against him because he told this garbage organization to shove it up our asses. You really just need to stop. We let a franchise QB walk away. Stop trying to deny it.[/b] [/quote] |
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1afn1
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Post by 1afn1 on Sept 29, 2018 14:33:38 GMT -5
I'm a Cousins fan. But he is not a franchise, or elite QB. Elite QBs put their teams on their backs and will them to victory. I'm ignoring the first 3 years of his tenure with us. As our starter he was a .500 QB who came up small in the biggest games. Did he have help getting to that record, sure. But fair or not, a QB is judged by his record. To date as a Viking he is a .375 QB. He has had more talent around him in the first 4 games than he ever did as a Redskin. He is putting up phenominal yardage as usual, but has turned the ball over at the worst time and has failed to lift his team up to wins. Cousins is a very good QB. But he has his flaws and I think the Vikings will regret paying him what they did. Alex Smith is also a very good QB. He has his flaws as well, and is not a franchise/elite QB. What he has done is win games, a lot of games, in the RS. His crux is that he hasn't had playoff success. But to say that the FO let Kirk walk is a joke. Kirk never, ever had any intention of signing a LTD here. He came out and said as much after he signed with Minny. He and his agent had a plan to leverage the FT into big bucks and to eventual unrestricted FA. That was his perogative, and I don't hold that against him. But he was never the long term answer here, as much as many of us (me included) wanted him to to be. What is the definition of a franchise QB that Cousins doesn't fit? Your definition of elite QB is nothing more than colorful rhetoric. It's a romantic notion of what no one has ever actually done even once, let alone on a consistent enough basis for it to create a standard and earn a label. I argued twice that his turning the ball over at the worst time is because in spite of his incredible production he has to come to the rescue at a point near the end of the game when all mistakes are catastrophic. You don't know what Kirk ever intended. Your statement is a guess, its conjecture and you stick with it because it fits your opinion. When we offered him the same deal he already rejected was Kirk or anyone with at least a brain in a jar supposed to think the Skins were serious? The Skins were dumb enough to drive his price up due to their own actions. The NFL is a business and kudos to his agent for correctly advising him how to maximize his position. Every player wants to be on his shoes, he got lucky enough to be sitting across the table from the ultimate poor negotiators. |
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SkinsFan67
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Post by SkinsFan67 on Sept 29, 2018 14:52:52 GMT -5
I'm a Cousins fan. But he is not a franchise, or elite QB. Elite QBs put their teams on their backs and will them to victory. I'm ignoring the first 3 years of his tenure with us. As our starter he was a .500 QB who came up small in the biggest games. Did he have help getting to that record, sure. But fair or not, a QB is judged by his record. To date as a Viking he is a .375 QB. He has had more talent around him in the first 4 games than he ever did as a Redskin. He is putting up phenominal yardage as usual, but has turned the ball over at the worst time and has failed to lift his team up to wins. Cousins is a very good QB. But he has his flaws and I think the Vikings will regret paying him what they did. Alex Smith is also a very good QB. He has his flaws as well, and is not a franchise/elite QB. What he has done is win games, a lot of games, in the RS. His crux is that he hasn't had playoff success. But to say that the FO let Kirk walk is a joke. Kirk never, ever had any intention of signing a LTD here. He came out and said as much after he signed with Minny. He and his agent had a plan to leverage the FT into big bucks and to eventual unrestricted FA. That was his perogative, and I don't hold that against him. But he was never the long term answer here, as much as many of us (me included) wanted him to to be. What is the definition of a franchise QB that Cousins doesn't fit? Your definition of elite QB is nothing more than colorful rhetoric. It's a romantic notion of what no one has ever actually done even once, let alone on a consistent enough basis for it to create a standard and earn a label. I argued twice that his turning the ball over at the worst time is because in spite of his incredible production he has to come to the rescue at a point near the end of the game when all mistakes are catastrophic. You don't know what Kirk ever intended. Your statement is a guess, its conjecture and you stick with it because it fits your opinion. When we offered him the same deal he already rejected was Kirk or anyone with at least a brain in a jar supposed to think the Skins were serious? The Skins were dumb enough to drive his price up due to their own actions. The NFL is a business and kudos to his agent for correctly advising him how to maximize his position. Every player wants to be on his shoes, he got lucky enough to be sitting across the table from the ultimate poor negotiators. He said it in an interview I saw on TV. His father said pretty much the same thing. His and McCartney's plan was to get to unrestricted FA where he could test is market value. And that is fine, perfectly within his right to do so, and I don't hold it against him. I've actually been pulling for him to do well in Minny. For me it has never been Kirk vs Alex. Pointing out Kirk's flaws doesn't mean I'm a hater. If you and others can't see his flaws, that is on you (and them). Kirk doesn't only turn the ball over at the end of games, he had a bit of a habit of throwing INTs in the Red Zone as well. He is not the only QB to do this, but it was an issue when he was with us. Clutch is not exactly a term I would use with Kirk. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. To me an elite QB is one that is going to be a HOF QB, and routinely picks their teams up and wills/carries them to wins. When the going gets tough, they take their games to the next level. Guys like Brady, Brees, Rodgers. Manning and Big Ben have done that earlier in their careers, but might not be there anymore. Guys like Smith, Cousins, Ryan, Wilson and Rivers are all very good QBs...but IMO are not HOF guys that do what the other mentioned QBs have done pretty regularly in their careers. Way too early to say what Goff will or will not be. |
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Post by 1afn1 on Sept 29, 2018 15:22:02 GMT -5
What is the definition of a franchise QB that Cousins doesn't fit? Your definition of elite QB is nothing more than colorful rhetoric. It's a romantic notion of what no one has ever actually done even once, let alone on a consistent enough basis for it to create a standard and earn a label. I argued twice that his turning the ball over at the worst time is because in spite of his incredible production he has to come to the rescue at a point near the end of the game when all mistakes are catastrophic. You don't know what Kirk ever intended. Your statement is a guess, its conjecture and you stick with it because it fits your opinion. When we offered him the same deal he already rejected was Kirk or anyone with at least a brain in a jar supposed to think the Skins were serious? The Skins were dumb enough to drive his price up due to their own actions. The NFL is a business and kudos to his agent for correctly advising him how to maximize his position. Every player wants to be on his shoes, he got lucky enough to be sitting across the table from the ultimate poor negotiators. He said it in an interview I saw on TV. His father said pretty much the same thing. His and McCartney's plan was to get to unrestricted FA where he could test is market value. And that is fine, perfectly within his right to do so, and I don't hold it against him. I've actually been pulling for him to do well in Minny. For me it has never been Kirk vs Alex. Pointing out Kirk's flaws doesn't mean I'm a hater. If you and others can't see his flaws, that is on you (and them). Kirk doesn't only turn the ball over at the end of games, he had a bit of a habit of throwing INTs in the Red Zone as well. He is not the only QB to do this, but it was an issue when he was with us. Clutch is not exactly a term I would use with Kirk. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. To me an elite QB is one that is going to be a HOF QB, and routinely picks their teams up and wills/carries them to wins. When the going gets tough, they take their games to the next level. Guys like Brady, Brees, Rodgers. Manning and Big Ben have done that earlier in their careers, but might not be there anymore. Guys like Smith, Cousins, Ryan, Wilson and Rivers are all very good QBs...but IMO are not HOF guys that do what the other mentioned QBs have done pretty regularly in their careers. Way too early to say what Goff will or will not be. Kirk could not have had that plan or intention from the very beginning. His value didnt catapult overnight and his worth was still very much debatable when the Redskins first opted to wait and see. The approach stunk because the QB market is volatile and any QB who even hints at competency gets a deal. By the time Kirk formulated this plan, the Redskins had already set the table for this option. I didn't call you a hater. I didnt characterize you at all. You're a good egg in my book. I just disagree with hiw you arrived at your conclusions. |
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SkinsFan67
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Post by SkinsFan67 on Sept 29, 2018 21:10:21 GMT -5
He said it in an interview I saw on TV. His father said pretty much the same thing. His and McCartney's plan was to get to unrestricted FA where he could test is market value. And that is fine, perfectly within his right to do so, and I don't hold it against him. I've actually been pulling for him to do well in Minny. For me it has never been Kirk vs Alex. Pointing out Kirk's flaws doesn't mean I'm a hater. If you and others can't see his flaws, that is on you (and them). Kirk doesn't only turn the ball over at the end of games, he had a bit of a habit of throwing INTs in the Red Zone as well. He is not the only QB to do this, but it was an issue when he was with us. Clutch is not exactly a term I would use with Kirk. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. To me an elite QB is one that is going to be a HOF QB, and routinely picks their teams up and wills/carries them to wins. When the going gets tough, they take their games to the next level. Guys like Brady, Brees, Rodgers. Manning and Big Ben have done that earlier in their careers, but might not be there anymore. Guys like Smith, Cousins, Ryan, Wilson and Rivers are all very good QBs...but IMO are not HOF guys that do what the other mentioned QBs have done pretty regularly in their careers. Way too early to say what Goff will or will not be. Kirk could not have had that plan or intention from the very beginning. His value didnt catapult overnight and his worth was still very much debatable when the Redskins first opted to wait and see. The approach stunk because the QB market is volatile and any QB who even hints at competency gets a deal. By the time Kirk formulated this plan, the Redskins had already set the table for this option. I didn't call you a hater. I didnt characterize you at all. You're a good egg in my book. I just disagree with hiw you arrived at your conclusions. It wasn't Kirk's plan, it was his agents, which Kirk bought into and in turn made a crap ton of money along the way. Kirk said in the interview that when we first approached him with an extension after the '15 season (which was a low ball offer in the opinion of most), he was ready to sign on the dotted line. McCartney told him to hit the breaks and revealed the plan he had in place. After that he signed every FT we put in front of him and basically refused to negotiate/counter until the FT became too expensive. And, according to McCartney's plan, he hit FA just like he wanted. He said all of that (I'm paraphrasing of course) and his father made similar comments to the media after he signed with Minny. Kirk, at least in my mind, has flaws in his game that are preventing him from becoming an elite QB. He can put up all the eye catching stats he wants, but until he plays clutch in big games and in the big moments, and wills his team to victory, he won't get there in my book. I think he has the talent to be one, but for some reason he just hasn't gotten there yet. |
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1afn1
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Post by 1afn1 on Sept 30, 2018 9:30:22 GMT -5
Kirk could not have had that plan or intention from the very beginning. His value didnt catapult overnight and his worth was still very much debatable when the Redskins first opted to wait and see. The approach stunk because the QB market is volatile and any QB who even hints at competency gets a deal. By the time Kirk formulated this plan, the Redskins had already set the table for this option. I didn't call you a hater. I didnt characterize you at all. You're a good egg in my book. I just disagree with hiw you arrived at your conclusions. It wasn't Kirk's plan, it was his agents, which Kirk bought into and in turn made a crap ton of money along the way. Kirk said in the interview that when we first approached him with an extension after the '15 season (which was a low ball offer in the opinion of most), he was ready to sign on the dotted line. McCartney told him to hit the breaks and revealed the plan he had in place. After that he signed every FT we put in front of him and basically refused to negotiate/counter until the FT became too expensive. And, according to McCartney's plan, he hit FA just like he wanted. He said all of that (I'm paraphrasing of course) and his father made similar comments to the media after he signed with Minny. Kirk, at least in my mind, has flaws in his game that are preventing him from becoming an elite QB. He can put up all the eye catching stats he wants, but until he plays clutch in big games and in the big moments, and wills his team to victory, he won't get there in my book. I think he has the talent to be one, but for some reason he just hasn't gotten there yet. In 3 full years as a starter, he produced at a level few ever do at all and on par with anything Brady, Rogers, or anyone else you can name has. And he did it three years in a row. That is elite. Wins and losses are a team result. No player can ever lay exclusive claim to a win nor can he be for a loss. Ive never watched a game where 10 men blew every assignment, but because of one guy it didnt matter and they won anyway. Nor have I ever seen a team play perfect football only to be undone by one guy on every play (he'd be benched by the third drive). |
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SkinsFan67
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Post by SkinsFan67 on Sept 30, 2018 11:43:48 GMT -5
It wasn't Kirk's plan, it was his agents, which Kirk bought into and in turn made a crap ton of money along the way. Kirk said in the interview that when we first approached him with an extension after the '15 season (which was a low ball offer in the opinion of most), he was ready to sign on the dotted line. McCartney told him to hit the breaks and revealed the plan he had in place. After that he signed every FT we put in front of him and basically refused to negotiate/counter until the FT became too expensive. And, according to McCartney's plan, he hit FA just like he wanted. He said all of that (I'm paraphrasing of course) and his father made similar comments to the media after he signed with Minny. Kirk, at least in my mind, has flaws in his game that are preventing him from becoming an elite QB. He can put up all the eye catching stats he wants, but until he plays clutch in big games and in the big moments, and wills his team to victory, he won't get there in my book. I think he has the talent to be one, but for some reason he just hasn't gotten there yet. In 3 full years as a starter, he produced at a level few ever do at all and on par with anything Brady, Rogers, or anyone else you can name has. And he did it three years in a row. That is elite. Wins and losses are a team result. No player can ever lay exclusive claim to a win nor can he be for a loss. Ive never watched a game where 10 men blew every assignment, but because of one guy it didnt matter and they won anyway. Nor have I ever seen a team play perfect football only to be undone by one guy on every play (he'd be benched by the third drive). Fair or not, QBs are jugdged by how many wins and how many SB victories. When it is time for HOF discussion that is what is mentioned for QBs (they wouldn't be in the convo without gaudy numbers). The same isn't done for other positions. What was his winning percentage in those 3 years? What is his winning percentage this year? We used a lot of different excuses for why he didn't win more games here. Now he is on a team that went to the NFC Champ game last year, won 13 regular season games and is stocked top to bottom with talent and is 1-2-1. Elite QBs find a way to step their game up and win more games than Kirk has done to date. That is not elite. Gaudy numbers don't mean much if the wins don't follow. |
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Post by Biggest on Sept 30, 2018 14:48:06 GMT -5
Are you blind to how poorly Cousins played in the second half of that playoff game versus the Pack? In late season home games versus Dallas, Carolina and the Giants (2016 in particular)? In three starts ending the year versus the Giants, Cousins has thrown 1 TD and 7 picks. Was that getting it done? Look, he is a good QB. He earned that pay day. And he is carrying the Vikes. But you turn a blind eye to his well known tendencies to Fumble or get picked off at the worst possible time, or justify those repeated mistakes by saying he is forced to do too much. The only thing consistently being forced are those killer / game deciding turnovers, my friend. It is the biggest reason he is gone and Alex has replaced him. It wasn't Kirk's plan, it was his agents, which Kirk bought into and in turn made a crap ton of money along the way. Kirk said in the interview that when we first approached him with an extension after the '15 season (which was a low ball offer in the opinion of most), he was ready to sign on the dotted line. McCartney told him to hit the breaks and revealed the plan he had in place. After that he signed every FT we put in front of him and basically refused to negotiate/counter until the FT became too expensive. And, according to McCartney's plan, he hit FA just like he wanted. He said all of that (I'm paraphrasing of course) and his father made similar comments to the media after he signed with Minny. Kirk, at least in my mind, has flaws in his game that are preventing him from becoming an elite QB. He can put up all the eye catching stats he wants, but until he plays clutch in big games and in the big moments, and wills his team to victory, he won't get there in my book. I think he has the talent to be one, but for some reason he just hasn't gotten there yet. In 3 full years as a starter, he produced at a level few ever do at all and on par with anything Brady, Rogers, or anyone else you can name has. And he did it three years in a row. That is elite. Wins and losses are a team result. No player can ever lay exclusive claim to a win nor can he be for a loss. Ive never watched a game where 10 men blew every assignment, but because of one guy it didnt matter and they won anyway. Nor have I ever seen a team play perfect football only to be undone by one guy on every play (he'd be benched by the third drive). |
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Post by meddle on Sept 30, 2018 18:40:02 GMT -5
I'm a Cousins fan. But he is not a franchise, or elite QB. Elite QBs put their teams on their backs and will them to victory. I'm ignoring the first 3 years of his tenure with us. As our starter he was a .500 QB who came up small in the biggest games. Did he have help getting to that record, sure. But fair or not, a QB is judged by his record. To date as a Viking he is a .375 QB. He has had more talent around him in the first 4 games than he ever did as a Redskin. He is putting up phenominal yardage as usual, but has turned the ball over at the worst time and has failed to lift his team up to wins. Cousins is a very good QB. But he has his flaws and I think the Vikings will regret paying him what they did. Alex Smith is also a very good QB. He has his flaws as well, and is not a franchise/elite QB. What he has done is win games, a lot of games, in the RS. His crux is that he hasn't had playoff success. But to say that the FO let Kirk walk is a joke. Kirk never, ever had any intention of signing a LTD here. He came out and said as much after he signed with Minny. He and his agent had a plan to leverage the FT into big bucks and to eventual unrestricted FA. That was his perogative, and I don't hold that against him. But he was never the long term answer here, as much as many of us (me included) wanted him to to be. I think he would've signed a LTD following the 2015 season, but the team wasn't ready for that (and most of the league agreed). After Kirk had a monster season in 2016 (in terms of stats, not wins or post-season), there was no chance of signing a deal here. It really was a matter of bad timing and too many questions about Cousins following 2015, earned by inconsistent/poor play when he had chances in 2013-14. Regardless, Kirk wasn't worth the money the Vikings paid him - the Vikings probably figured they were a QB away from real success; the Skins knew they needed to spend money elsewhere. The Vikings may be wrong about their assessment, but the Skins made the best of a bad situation by signing Alex Smith. |
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Post by SkinsFan67 on Sept 30, 2018 18:50:59 GMT -5
I'm a Cousins fan. But he is not a franchise, or elite QB. Elite QBs put their teams on their backs and will them to victory. I'm ignoring the first 3 years of his tenure with us. As our starter he was a .500 QB who came up small in the biggest games. Did he have help getting to that record, sure. But fair or not, a QB is judged by his record. To date as a Viking he is a .375 QB. He has had more talent around him in the first 4 games than he ever did as a Redskin. He is putting up phenominal yardage as usual, but has turned the ball over at the worst time and has failed to lift his team up to wins. Cousins is a very good QB. But he has his flaws and I think the Vikings will regret paying him what they did. Alex Smith is also a very good QB. He has his flaws as well, and is not a franchise/elite QB. What he has done is win games, a lot of games, in the RS. His crux is that he hasn't had playoff success. But to say that the FO let Kirk walk is a joke. Kirk never, ever had any intention of signing a LTD here. He came out and said as much after he signed with Minny. He and his agent had a plan to leverage the FT into big bucks and to eventual unrestricted FA. That was his perogative, and I don't hold that against him. But he was never the long term answer here, as much as many of us (me included) wanted him to to be. I think he would've signed a LTD following the 2015 season, but the team wasn't ready for that (and most of the league agreed). After Kirk had a monster season in 2016 (in terms of stats, not wins or post-season), there was no chance of signing a deal here. It really was a matter of bad timing and too many questions about Cousins following 2015, earned by inconsistent/poor play when he had chances in 2013-14. Regardless, Kirk wasn't worth the money the Vikings paid him - the Vikings probably figured they were a QB away from real success; the Skins knew they needed to spend money elsewhere. The Vikings may be wrong about their assessment, but the Skins made the best of a bad situation by signing Alex Smith.I agree. I would have been happy to extend Kirk, but when that possibility flew out the window, I think Smith was the best option available outside of the draft. And we were picking too late in the first to get one of the rookie QBs without trading up, and that is if the FO felt good about any we could have reasonably moved up for. |
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Post by 1afn1 on Oct 1, 2018 16:42:55 GMT -5
Are you blind to how poorly Cousins played in the second half of that playoff game versus the Pack? In late season home games versus Dallas, Carolina and the Giants (2016 in particular)? In three starts ending the year versus the Giants, Cousins has thrown 1 TD and 7 picks. Was that getting it done? Look, he is a good QB. He earned that pay day. And he is carrying the Vikes. But you turn a blind eye to his well known tendencies to Fumble or get picked off at the worst possible time, or justify those repeated mistakes by saying he is forced to do too much. The only thing consistently being forced are those killer / game deciding turnovers, my friend. It is the biggest reason he is gone and Alex has replaced him. In 3 full years as a starter, he produced at a level few ever do at all and on par with anything Brady, Rogers, or anyone else you can name has. And he did it three years in a row. That is elite. Wins and losses are a team result. No player can ever lay exclusive claim to a win nor can he be for a loss. Ive never watched a game where 10 men blew every assignment, but because of one guy it didnt matter and they won anyway. Nor have I ever seen a team play perfect football only to be undone by one guy on every play (he'd be benched by the third drive). I certainly didn't turn a blind eye to it, scroll up to read two of my posts specifically addressing WHY Cousins should never have been a position to make those mistakes in the first place. You put a QB into an obvious desperate passing situation late in the game, there's typically only one outcome. However, you take Cousins' production through the first 50 minutes of most games and pair with a running attack that can eat up clock late and a defense that can stop teams from scoring more than 30 points and you have a QB that will never even be in a position to have to drop back and get sacked by a defense with its ears pinned back.
You can pick 5 or 6 games where Cousins didn't play well., I can give you 5 times as many where he was absolutely stellar AND kept this team competitive. You can't give it to the defense because it sucked. You can't give it to the running game because it was non-existent. We had a passing game with a decent, if inconsistent, offensive line and that was it. Totally one-dimensional. Defenses love that because they can tee off, but even knowing that Cousins was still more productive than most QBs can ever hope to be. He was more than good.
Without Cousins we were a 5 win team. Maybe. With luck.
We forged an impossible situation that caused us to allow the best QB we've had since Jurgensen to leave and for whom there was no equivalent replacement (Alex is not) while also giving up a stellar young DB to get an older safer QB (I'm more angry about losing Fuller than losing Cousins because by that time I had accepted Cousins was a goner anyway).
The mistakes were repeated because the team repeatedly put him in that position. He leads the team to score 25, 28, 35 points - with little run support, but the defense gives up more. We'll have a lead for 50 minutes. Then, with 6 minutes to go we are down thanks to our mutts we call a defense, so what happens. The only thing we have going for us has to do it one more time, except there is no longer any pretense. The opposing defense knows what we are going to do. Fans know what we are going to do. Hell, the football knows what's going to happen. Drop back. Drop back. Drop back...sack, with maybe a fumble. Or receiver falls down...INT. Or ball batted at LOS...INT.
In the microcosm of the play, it's all Cousins. How that play every came to be...he's the LAST one to get that blame.
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Post by Biggest on Oct 1, 2018 21:23:02 GMT -5
He’s a fine QB. Truly. I prefer Alex leading my team. Especially in situations where we need to not make the killer mistake - something Smith rarely does. I do think I would prefer Cousins in a scenario where we are behind by multiple scores. Kirk is certainly more explosive. But sometimes he self destructs - way more than Alex. Are you blind to how poorly Cousins played in the second half of that playoff game versus the Pack? In late season home games versus Dallas, Carolina and the Giants (2016 in particular)? In three starts ending the year versus the Giants, Cousins has thrown 1 TD and 7 picks. Was that getting it done? Look, he is a good QB. He earned that pay day. And he is carrying the Vikes. But you turn a blind eye to his well known tendencies to Fumble or get picked off at the worst possible time, or justify those repeated mistakes by saying he is forced to do too much. The only thing consistently being forced are those killer / game deciding turnovers, my friend. It is the biggest reason he is gone and Alex has replaced him. I certainly didn't turn a blind eye to it, scroll up to read two of my posts specifically addressing WHY Cousins should never have been a position to make those mistakes in the first place. You put a QB into an obvious desperate passing situation late in the game, there's typically only one outcome. However, you take Cousins' production through the first 50 minutes of most games and pair with a running attack that can eat up clock late and a defense that can stop teams from scoring more than 30 points and you have a QB that will never even be in a position to have to drop back and get sacked by a defense with its ears pinned back.
You can pick 5 or 6 games where Cousins didn't play well., I can give you 5 times as many where he was absolutely stellar AND kept this team competitive. You can't give it to the defense because it sucked. You can't give it to the running game because it was non-existent. We had a passing game with a decent, if inconsistent, offensive line and that was it. Totally one-dimensional. Defenses love that because they can tee off, but even knowing that Cousins was still more productive than most QBs can ever hope to be. He was more than good.
Without Cousins we were a 5 win team. Maybe. With luck.
We forged an impossible situation that caused us to allow the best QB we've had since Jurgensen to leave and for whom there was no equivalent replacement (Alex is not) while also giving up a stellar young DB to get an older safer QB (I'm more angry about losing Fuller than losing Cousins because by that time I had accepted Cousins was a goner anyway).
The mistakes were repeated because the team repeatedly put him in that position. He leads the team to score 25, 28, 35 points - with little run support, but the defense gives up more. We'll have a lead for 50 minutes. Then, with 6 minutes to go we are down thanks to our mutts we call a defense, so what happens. The only thing we have going for us has to do it one more time, except there is no longer any pretense. The opposing defense knows what we are going to do. Fans know what we are going to do. Hell, the football knows what's going to happen. Drop back. Drop back. Drop back...sack, with maybe a fumble. Or receiver falls down...INT. Or ball batted at LOS...INT.
In the microcosm of the play, it's all Cousins. How that play every came to be...he's the LAST one to get that blame.
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Post by redskindiamond on Oct 2, 2018 4:23:39 GMT -5
Man even in the stands there was non stop excitement.
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